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	<title>Comments on: Marijuana Legalization: Demographics is Destiny</title>
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	<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/</link>
	<description>Legalize marijuana</description>
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		<title>By: cire</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4218</link>
		<dc:creator>cire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4218</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for continuing and unifying the movement, especially by open &amp; honest education and correcting how cannabis users are perceived.

But I&#039;m thoroughly convinced of something now, of what I will be doing and what I would encourage all others to do.

Boycott EMERALD [all about their green] TRIANGLE [for stabbing others in the back] bud wherever possible.

Boycott DISPENSERS [of DEA &#039;justice,&#039; by proxy] against 19 bud wherever possible.

Boycott CARTELS [and their U.S. government sponsors] bud wherever possible.

GROW YOUR OWN!!!Take control of your own health and happiness by taking the time to learn how to grow ... it&#039;s a plant! We do not need these people. Dry up their source of power over us - OUR OWN MONEY!

The information on how to nourish the plant that nourishes you, is widely available. The costs associated with growing are less than purchasing in any market - OVERGROW THE GOVERNMENT and all others who would gladly see us in cages before giving up their ignorance, fear and greed!

EVERYWHERE YOU ARE – SPREAD THE SEEDS OF CANNABIS HEMP AND THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THEY HOLD FOR US!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for continuing and unifying the movement, especially by open &amp; honest education and correcting how cannabis users are perceived.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m thoroughly convinced of something now, of what I will be doing and what I would encourage all others to do.</p>
<p>Boycott EMERALD [all about their green] TRIANGLE [for stabbing others in the back] bud wherever possible.</p>
<p>Boycott DISPENSERS [of DEA 'justice,' by proxy] against 19 bud wherever possible.</p>
<p>Boycott CARTELS [and their U.S. government sponsors] bud wherever possible.</p>
<p>GROW YOUR OWN!!!Take control of your own health and happiness by taking the time to learn how to grow &#8230; it&#8217;s a plant! We do not need these people. Dry up their source of power over us &#8211; OUR OWN MONEY!</p>
<p>The information on how to nourish the plant that nourishes you, is widely available. The costs associated with growing are less than purchasing in any market &#8211; OVERGROW THE GOVERNMENT and all others who would gladly see us in cages before giving up their ignorance, fear and greed!</p>
<p>EVERYWHERE YOU ARE – SPREAD THE SEEDS OF CANNABIS HEMP AND THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THEY HOLD FOR US!</p>
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		<title>By: cire</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4217</link>
		<dc:creator>cire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4217</guid>
		<description>I’ve posted this in other forums, and wanted to share my response to anyone trying to justify non-support of Prop 19 (which applies equally well to all groups that joined with much of the Medical Pot industry and of course the Drug Warriors):

It was never ONLY about the ‘few thousands’ of Grower-voters up there who not only cast a ballot … but played an integral part with all guilty parties, even encouraging others to do so as well.

Dispensary owners, employees, marketing agents, etc., who continue to maintain shamefully (prohibition-)inflated prices.

Doctors – some rubber-stamping hangnails for $150.

And then there’s the Patients … some hurting, and some not so much. Scared into voting NO against THEIR own best interests.

The Medical Pot INDUSTRY is already corrupted, as it co-exists with the Black Market (and overlaps at times I’m sure). No need for Big Corp. to step in and make medicating/relaxing a risky, and expensive proposition.

This effort to end COMPLETE PROHIBITION needs every victory it can get, starting last century … and a coalition of supposed CANNABIS-supporters, not to mention PEOPLE-supporters(patients?, responsible adults?) helped sink one of OUR best chances to put a HUGE crack in the wall, for an ENTIRE WORLD waiting for so many FREEDOMS!

Anyone who did not vote or vote YES on 19 did it for the reasons I mentioned above – fear, ignorance, greed. Or some combination thereof.

The WAR goes on, thanks to vested interests who support the current prohibition of Cannabis – this inestimable natural gift to ALL OF US – vested interests who hate others and love MONEY(themselves).

You’ve switched sides. You’ve joined the oppressors.

And if you’re a farmer who just got caught up in all of this you’re just going to be one more casualty, and by no means the most serious (think: the incarcerated &amp; their families, the targeted minorities and poor, the sick and tired and stressed and depressed …).

Don’t talk to me about crop prices – we all struggle to survive, some more than others. The freedom to use the Cannabis hemp plant is it’s own issue … not to be confused with U.S. economic policies on farming.

EXCEPT that opening restrictions on Cannabis for non-medicinal uses would have allowed something wonderful to happen – a start to the experiment of allowing this one plant to revolutionize FOOD, FIBER, FUEL and SHELTER industries (in addition to the medical) – while leading to otherwise unachievable ENVIRONMENTAL gains. All of which means one thing: a better ECONOMY for MORE people than you may even care about.

Thanks for aiding the continuation of modern slavery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ve posted this in other forums, and wanted to share my response to anyone trying to justify non-support of Prop 19 (which applies equally well to all groups that joined with much of the Medical Pot industry and of course the Drug Warriors):</p>
<p>It was never ONLY about the ‘few thousands’ of Grower-voters up there who not only cast a ballot … but played an integral part with all guilty parties, even encouraging others to do so as well.</p>
<p>Dispensary owners, employees, marketing agents, etc., who continue to maintain shamefully (prohibition-)inflated prices.</p>
<p>Doctors – some rubber-stamping hangnails for $150.</p>
<p>And then there’s the Patients … some hurting, and some not so much. Scared into voting NO against THEIR own best interests.</p>
<p>The Medical Pot INDUSTRY is already corrupted, as it co-exists with the Black Market (and overlaps at times I’m sure). No need for Big Corp. to step in and make medicating/relaxing a risky, and expensive proposition.</p>
<p>This effort to end COMPLETE PROHIBITION needs every victory it can get, starting last century … and a coalition of supposed CANNABIS-supporters, not to mention PEOPLE-supporters(patients?, responsible adults?) helped sink one of OUR best chances to put a HUGE crack in the wall, for an ENTIRE WORLD waiting for so many FREEDOMS!</p>
<p>Anyone who did not vote or vote YES on 19 did it for the reasons I mentioned above – fear, ignorance, greed. Or some combination thereof.</p>
<p>The WAR goes on, thanks to vested interests who support the current prohibition of Cannabis – this inestimable natural gift to ALL OF US – vested interests who hate others and love MONEY(themselves).</p>
<p>You’ve switched sides. You’ve joined the oppressors.</p>
<p>And if you’re a farmer who just got caught up in all of this you’re just going to be one more casualty, and by no means the most serious (think: the incarcerated &amp; their families, the targeted minorities and poor, the sick and tired and stressed and depressed …).</p>
<p>Don’t talk to me about crop prices – we all struggle to survive, some more than others. The freedom to use the Cannabis hemp plant is it’s own issue … not to be confused with U.S. economic policies on farming.</p>
<p>EXCEPT that opening restrictions on Cannabis for non-medicinal uses would have allowed something wonderful to happen – a start to the experiment of allowing this one plant to revolutionize FOOD, FIBER, FUEL and SHELTER industries (in addition to the medical) – while leading to otherwise unachievable ENVIRONMENTAL gains. All of which means one thing: a better ECONOMY for MORE people than you may even care about.</p>
<p>Thanks for aiding the continuation of modern slavery.</p>
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		<title>By: Teddy Partridge</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4216</link>
		<dc:creator>Teddy Partridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Nov 2010 02:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4216</guid>
		<description>$600 per square foot per year with each plant requiring five square feet per year is $3,000 per year, not $15,000</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$600 per square foot per year with each plant requiring five square feet per year is $3,000 per year, not $15,000</p>
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		<title>By: irritableliberal</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4215</link>
		<dc:creator>irritableliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 22:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4215</guid>
		<description>There is also the possible unintended consequence of driving growing and consumption outside the legal framework followed by aggressive policing to generate revenues through fines for the local authorities. In the Rancho Cordova scenario I believe that would be a very likely scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is also the possible unintended consequence of driving growing and consumption outside the legal framework followed by aggressive policing to generate revenues through fines for the local authorities. In the Rancho Cordova scenario I believe that would be a very likely scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: dakine01</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4214</link>
		<dc:creator>dakine01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 21:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4214</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it&#039;s really quite similar to the &quot;local option&quot; that allows cities and towns and even precincts throughout the south to vote on whether it is &quot;wet or dry&quot; for alcohol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s really quite similar to the &#8220;local option&#8221; that allows cities and towns and even precincts throughout the south to vote on whether it is &#8220;wet or dry&#8221; for alcohol</p>
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		<title>By: charliepotts</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4213</link>
		<dc:creator>charliepotts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 21:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4213</guid>
		<description>&quot;One has to question why Prop 19 didn’t create one uniform tax rate for the state other than to create self serving commercial advantages for the drafter of Prop 19.&quot;

Because then all the communities that didn&#039;t want legal pot at all would complain that it was being shoved down their throats.  Prop 19 offered tremendous flexibility for local governments.  That is a feature, not a bug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One has to question why Prop 19 didn’t create one uniform tax rate for the state other than to create self serving commercial advantages for the drafter of Prop 19.&#8221;</p>
<p>Because then all the communities that didn&#8217;t want legal pot at all would complain that it was being shoved down their throats.  Prop 19 offered tremendous flexibility for local governments.  That is a feature, not a bug.</p>
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		<title>By: irritableliberal</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4212</link>
		<dc:creator>irritableliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 21:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4212</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;large segment of newspaper editorial boards that the initiative was poorly written, a claim that was ridiculous. This probably turned off some voters.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I assume by &#039;poorly written&#039; the writer is commenting on the content of Prop 19 and not the style or grammar.  My mind was elsewhere leading up to the elections and I automatically voted yes on 19 without doing any due diligence.  After the election, I ran into one of the drafters of the original Prop 215 who opposed 19 for a number of reasons none of which I was aware.  

There are a number of problems the bill would have created:

1 - Taxation.  Taxes were to be determined by the local city, town or municipality.  Why?  Rancho Cordova, a town outside Sacramento had already jumped the gun and passed their tax law.  Tax would be $600 per square foot per year.  One plant will need at least 5 square feet.  Growing one plant a year outside would cost $15,000 a year in taxes, a prohibitive amount for anyone growing to sell or for their personal use.  Anyone growing or using pot without a permit would be liable for criminal and or civil charges.  Suburban towns like Rancho Cordova proliferate around every large more liberal urban area in California.  Many would have followed the Rancho Cordova nodel which would have driven the trade back underground, even for medical card holders.  Law enforcement would then have more than likely gone after the illegal market aggressively to generate income for cash starved local government.  Fines could be tacked on to property taxes and they could have been considerable.  A legal medical card holder, especially one whose condition is chronic and uses pot on a regular basis would no longer be allowed to grow their own supply could no longer afford to do it.  

At the same time, Richard Lee, the sponsor of 19 and others called the Prop 19 Cartel had already secured large scale growing permits in the city of Oakland.  Is that why Prop 19 gave all taxation rights to the local authorities?

2 - The 18-to under 21 crowd.  The recent bill Schwarzenegger signed reduced penalties for possession of up to an ounce to the equivalent of a speeding ticket with a maximum fine of $100.  The only exception was possession on a school property would carry higher fines and criminal charges.  Prop 19 excluded anyone under 21 from possessing pot and instead criminalized it.  a 22 year old, passing a joint to a 20 year old would criminalize both parties.  For that age group, Prop 19 was regressive, criminalizing any possession.  Prop 19 left the definiion of &quot;criminal&#039; up to the local authorities.

My daughter is 17 1/2 and although she doesn&#039;t do an drugs shse knows a lot of people who do as well as a lot of college freshmen and most were well aware of the position and were almost unanimously against Prop 19 so their either voted no or stayed away completely.  

These two flaws in the law would have created an insanely chaotic quilt of local rules all across California. While Prop 19 legalized growing and consuming pot, it was via a very confined process that would have favored some and punished others as well as creating a criminal class for anyone growing or consuming outside that framework.   

One has to question why Prop 19 didn&#039;t create one uniform tax rate for the state other than to create self serving commercial advantages for the drafter of Prop 19.

I support the legalization and taxation of marijuana but Prop 19 wasn&#039;t the solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>large segment of newspaper editorial boards that the initiative was poorly written, a claim that was ridiculous. This probably turned off some voters.</p></blockquote>
<p>I assume by &#8216;poorly written&#8217; the writer is commenting on the content of Prop 19 and not the style or grammar.  My mind was elsewhere leading up to the elections and I automatically voted yes on 19 without doing any due diligence.  After the election, I ran into one of the drafters of the original Prop 215 who opposed 19 for a number of reasons none of which I was aware.  </p>
<p>There are a number of problems the bill would have created:</p>
<p>1 &#8211; Taxation.  Taxes were to be determined by the local city, town or municipality.  Why?  Rancho Cordova, a town outside Sacramento had already jumped the gun and passed their tax law.  Tax would be $600 per square foot per year.  One plant will need at least 5 square feet.  Growing one plant a year outside would cost $15,000 a year in taxes, a prohibitive amount for anyone growing to sell or for their personal use.  Anyone growing or using pot without a permit would be liable for criminal and or civil charges.  Suburban towns like Rancho Cordova proliferate around every large more liberal urban area in California.  Many would have followed the Rancho Cordova nodel which would have driven the trade back underground, even for medical card holders.  Law enforcement would then have more than likely gone after the illegal market aggressively to generate income for cash starved local government.  Fines could be tacked on to property taxes and they could have been considerable.  A legal medical card holder, especially one whose condition is chronic and uses pot on a regular basis would no longer be allowed to grow their own supply could no longer afford to do it.  </p>
<p>At the same time, Richard Lee, the sponsor of 19 and others called the Prop 19 Cartel had already secured large scale growing permits in the city of Oakland.  Is that why Prop 19 gave all taxation rights to the local authorities?</p>
<p>2 &#8211; The 18-to under 21 crowd.  The recent bill Schwarzenegger signed reduced penalties for possession of up to an ounce to the equivalent of a speeding ticket with a maximum fine of $100.  The only exception was possession on a school property would carry higher fines and criminal charges.  Prop 19 excluded anyone under 21 from possessing pot and instead criminalized it.  a 22 year old, passing a joint to a 20 year old would criminalize both parties.  For that age group, Prop 19 was regressive, criminalizing any possession.  Prop 19 left the definiion of &#8220;criminal&#8217; up to the local authorities.</p>
<p>My daughter is 17 1/2 and although she doesn&#8217;t do an drugs shse knows a lot of people who do as well as a lot of college freshmen and most were well aware of the position and were almost unanimously against Prop 19 so their either voted no or stayed away completely.  </p>
<p>These two flaws in the law would have created an insanely chaotic quilt of local rules all across California. While Prop 19 legalized growing and consuming pot, it was via a very confined process that would have favored some and punished others as well as creating a criminal class for anyone growing or consuming outside that framework.   </p>
<p>One has to question why Prop 19 didn&#8217;t create one uniform tax rate for the state other than to create self serving commercial advantages for the drafter of Prop 19.</p>
<p>I support the legalization and taxation of marijuana but Prop 19 wasn&#8217;t the solution.</p>
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		<title>By: GDC707</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4211</link>
		<dc:creator>GDC707</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4211</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t believe that these folks see anything other that $$$ down the road. They aren’t out there producing lower grades of pot and giving it away as “sacrament” after all. These ain’t your 60′s generation hippies!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, I&#039;m with you on that one. I live in Humboldt and whenever you get in to a discussion with these folks they have all sorts of high minded reasons for why they opposed the measure but none of them have the ring of truth. One thing the discussion would always come back to is that the price of ALL weed of any grade is falling noticeably. You can get a square of marijuana fudge for $5 and if you are not a heavy user you can cut that into quarters and get a VERY respectable and pleasant ummm, treatment for $1.25 !  There are of course larger amount smoking equivalents that I am not familiar with but I do know the price is dropping. More and more people perceive it as effectively legal and are raising a few plants in the attic or wherever. All this supply adds up over time. 

I grew up in the San joaquin Valley (it does not have to be in the mountains of Humboldt or wherever to be amazing quality, ugly valley floors with plenty of sunshine do just as well, maybe better) and I have a hard time not believing that full legalization with commercial operations plus homegrown availability would turm pot into the equivalent of say, celery. Just another cheap commodity. At that point I think the new market would be for hemp products that I believe do not require high quality psychotropic qualities but physical strength instead. (Although I confess I don&#039;t know much about that.)

And finally, yes, I would not bet on the youth vote taking over in time and legalizing it. I heard the same thing, lo those many, many decades ago . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don’t believe that these folks see anything other that $$$ down the road. They aren’t out there producing lower grades of pot and giving it away as “sacrament” after all. These ain’t your 60′s generation hippies!</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m with you on that one. I live in Humboldt and whenever you get in to a discussion with these folks they have all sorts of high minded reasons for why they opposed the measure but none of them have the ring of truth. One thing the discussion would always come back to is that the price of ALL weed of any grade is falling noticeably. You can get a square of marijuana fudge for $5 and if you are not a heavy user you can cut that into quarters and get a VERY respectable and pleasant ummm, treatment for $1.25 !  There are of course larger amount smoking equivalents that I am not familiar with but I do know the price is dropping. More and more people perceive it as effectively legal and are raising a few plants in the attic or wherever. All this supply adds up over time. </p>
<p>I grew up in the San joaquin Valley (it does not have to be in the mountains of Humboldt or wherever to be amazing quality, ugly valley floors with plenty of sunshine do just as well, maybe better) and I have a hard time not believing that full legalization with commercial operations plus homegrown availability would turm pot into the equivalent of say, celery. Just another cheap commodity. At that point I think the new market would be for hemp products that I believe do not require high quality psychotropic qualities but physical strength instead. (Although I confess I don&#8217;t know much about that.)</p>
<p>And finally, yes, I would not bet on the youth vote taking over in time and legalizing it. I heard the same thing, lo those many, many decades ago . . . .</p>
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		<title>By: charliepotts</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4210</link>
		<dc:creator>charliepotts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4210</guid>
		<description>The growers in Humboldt are part of the organized crime cartels who get rich from selling contraband.  It makes sense that they would vote against Prop 19.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The growers in Humboldt are part of the organized crime cartels who get rich from selling contraband.  It makes sense that they would vote against Prop 19.</p>
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		<title>By: Sixth Estate</title>
		<link>http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/2010/11/05/marijuana-legalization-demographics-is-destiny/#comment-4209</link>
		<dc:creator>Sixth Estate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justsaynow.firedoglake.com/?p=818#comment-4209</guid>
		<description>Obviously, the only shades that exist in your universe are black and white.

You don&#039;t need to open the floodgates to unbridled capitalism and big business in order to legalize marijuana. You could simply open the existing &lt;b&gt;cooperatives&lt;/b&gt; to &lt;i&gt;every adult&lt;/i&gt;, and eliminate the need for a doctor&#039;s consent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, the only shades that exist in your universe are black and white.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need to open the floodgates to unbridled capitalism and big business in order to legalize marijuana. You could simply open the existing <b>cooperatives</b> to <i>every adult</i>, and eliminate the need for a doctor&#8217;s consent.</p>
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