50,000 – just collateral damage, I guess. What a silly country we are. I remember when Poppy Bush was asked something about the drug war not working and he said we would just have to put more money into it. We always just throw money at any problem and are always surprised when it doesn’t work. The country needs to grow up.

Aw pshaw Jon. Napolitano can’t hold a candle to Albright who thinks sanctions were worth half a million dead Iraqi children.

They’re both a little short in the morals department.
How are the bees – is it spring yet?

The endless war mentality IS the problem, Twain.

It is an intentional money pit, a means of “disappearing” billions and trillions of dollars.

Napolitano would have no problem with a million dead, even six million, her job, as a good little intellectual suck-up, is to be the mouthpiece for “authority”.

Again, this is a good place for a few words from a song by Tom Lehrer:

Once the rockets are up,
Who cares where they come down?
That’s not our department,
Says Wernher von Braun.

The elite consider that they have many lives to spare, simply not their precious … own.

Appreciate this real and useful news, Jon, thank you.

DW

So glad you asked. I just went out to check the hives. I last checked them 6 days ago and cleaned off the white boards underneath. On Queen Vicky’s, I found one varroa mite and on Queen Irene’s I found zero.

Snoopy dance.

The queens have started laying again and I see pollen going into the hives in their little cargo pants, though where they’re getting it is a mystery as nothing has started to grow much yet, despite the mild winter. Pollen is made into bee bread thru fermentation & other changes & fed to the babies.

As everything in the broader world is depressing as hell, I’m disproportionately happy I have beez.

Any good news on your front?

Lol! I’m sorry, but the minute you have stand atop a pile of 50,000 dead that you yourself have all but ordered killed to maintain your stupid “war” of obstinacy and greed to proclaim yourselves heroes for all the lives you’ve supposedly saved, then not only is your little “war” a failure, but you, Janet Napolitano, and all who think like you, are failures as human beings.

Endless war is not only the money factor.

It’s the it-can’t-be-lost-on-my-watch mentality. The ceding of ground & power of the PTB is not in their DNA.

Like Zinn’s Lincoln who fought the civil war mainly so that territory would not be ‘lost’ on his watch. Little to do with slavery or states rights. Just didn’t want to be known as the prez who gave up such a large portion of land.

My considered diagnosis is that the wrong people are being killed. If the right people were being killed, this insanity would stop in a hurry.

read alfred mccoy’s “heroin and the politics of south east asia”. long story short, heroin was the number 2 cash crop in asia during the viet nam war. the cia was helping its export in return for profits and increasing anti communist loyalities of the tribes doing the production.
as long as none of nappy’s friend are amongst the 50k dead who cares? mexico should legalize everything like they threatened to do.

Napolitano is channeling my sweetheart Ms. Madeleine. Regarding the deaths of a half million children:

But the price, we think the price is worth it.

Mexico has a wingnut prez.

We are ruled by soulless monsters.

I spent 30 years working with addicts. These people (pols) don’t have a clue, never had a clue, never wanted a clue. The bang, bang, shoot ‘em up interdiction model has never worked. The treatment and education model has never been seriously embraced — too much like coddling druggies a know. The legalization options and possibilities are like the plague. More states seem to be looking at some aspects of legalization. The feds just keep smiling and busting people, trying supply side control, which has failed as miserably as it has in trickle down economics..

The “war” model loses again.

You owe me a big drink (see 2).

I’ll wait until the cocktail hour.

It’s a pity about the 50,000 dead people. How are the bees? Can you see how this might be taken as disrespectful? Does it matter that this is a public discussion?

You mean, the industrialists out to profit from a protracted civil war had Lincoln brainwashed into thinking losing a bit of land was soooo important.

I don’t think the 50,000 number is a result of law enforcement, it’s capitalist competition in action, isn’t it?
At this point, if all drugs were legalized in the US tomorrow, would this violence end? Or would the cartels still be “competing” with each other with the same level of violence?

50,000 is bullshit. Count all deaths from prescription drugs and get to 100,000+ easily. Note no war on xanax or paxil.

Last person I offered to buy a drink asked for a non-alcoholic beer. The bartender looked insulted when I asked him for that. He told his joint was not that kind of place.

I said the money was not the only factor, that not giving up power & land is part of DNA of PTB. Besides, that was a time of Manifest Destiny (phrase first used in 1845) of U.S. expansion, so giving up such a large swath would have ditched Lincoln’s reputation for all of history.

Though Zinn’s Lincoln was quite a sop to industrialists. He gave away land to RR monopolists, put reserve on Homestead land too high for 99ers, so vulture capitalists scooped it up & made a fortune thru subdivision, he sent troops from Gettysburg to brutally break up workers’ strike, imposed tariffs on some mfgrs to protect them from imports, which lowered standards of living of 99ers.

As I said, I’ll wait until the cocktail hour and nonalchy beer is definitely not the beverage of choice.

that is absurd. Coors and Bud don’t get into shooting fights on the streets of denver

Indeed…..ALL the DISadvantages of beer and none of the ADvantages.

I am not now nor have I ever been a fan of Ms. Napolitano.

I’ll have a nonalchy martini instead. :-)

I don’t always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Pardon me, but……isnt’ that just a glass of air with an olive????????

Guessing the cost of treatment would also be quite a bit lower than war waging.

In addition to the complete inhumanity of Napolitano’s statement.

You missed my grin, meaning just kidding. I do have to say that the olives are a plus, though. Use one pimento stuffed, for color, and one jalopeno stuffed for flavor.

OffT, but onT of wars, just got this in my in-box

Today marks the release of Anthony’s [Shadid] most personal work, House of Stone: A Memoir of Home, Family and a Lost Middle East. Though he left us much too soon, what remains is a poignant telling of the rebuilding of his family’s house in southern Lebanon and Anthony’s search for home. There can be no better tribute to his memory than for the Arab American community to help make House of Stone a bestseller. You can purchase your copy here or download the Kindle version here.

We’ve been friends for what 4-5 weeks. I know you. And I know when I’m being handed a “setup”. Hope I didn’t dissapoint you. :-)

working class, have you never noticed that we all ask about each other, our cats, our dogs, our families? That was very rude of you to try to define and limit the discussion to what YOU think is important. I happen to think that eCAHN’s bees are important since bees are dying out all over the country. I’ll be sure to tell Jane that she can’t come into the threads and tells us how Katie is doing since she would upset you.

Hope you don’t mind if I reply to your reply of my setup in a pedantic way. That’s MY style.

Well, it’s not the producers who are fighting, it’s the suppliers. They were killing each other for “turf” over alcohol during prohibition. But my question is if drugs were legalized in the US, would the violence among the cartels and between cartels and law enforcement in Mexico stop? Not a rhetorical question – I don’t know the answer.

Welcome to the attackees’ club, Twain. Been there myself in past couple of days.

I don’t know what pedantic means so I guess that’s OK. :-)
I enjoy working with you. I hope the feeling is mutual.

If one views this from the proper perspective, Napolitano’s statement is indeed accurate. The CIA, DEA, ATF, DHS, the Banks, and Big Pharma are reaping the profits from this war. The legalization of drugs will never happen as it would severely reduce the cash flow to these organizations. It’s also an excuse for the US to overthrow democratically elected governments in Latin America and install authoritarian regimes to “interdict” the flow of drugs, which is the “source of terrorist funding”, according to the official government propaganda.

I’m thinking that normalization of drugs would reduce the violence like repealing the 18th amendment seems to have done.

I’d put your Q into a broader context, though.

Which is as long as PTB want to have endless wars and use them to murder and otherwise intimidate innocents, they will always find an excuse. It was liquor, now it’s drugs. I have no idea what it would be if drugs were normalized, but who saw that once the Cold War ended U.S. would find terrorism as its next war.

In my way of thinking about it, it is not about the producer, mfgr, consumer in the most fundamental sense, but IS about empires looking for enemies to wage war against.

Since I decided not to take your misogynistic quips personally, all is kewl.

“how much collateral damage the administration is willing to accept before they would consider something a failure”

Them getting kicked out of office and NOT getting offered a cushy lobbying or speaking job is my guess. Other people’s dead bodies is just politics, it seems.

Acknowledged.

the election ballets in mexico are time stamped. during the last presidential election the leftist candidate was winning but going into the wee hours of the morning the conservative candidate had votes coming in at up to 200 to 1. Political Science Statisticians will tell you thats extremely unlikely without computer election fraud….

Excellent point about U.S. installing puppet govts in Latin America.

U.S. oxygen for holding those countries under its thumb was badly depleted by Iraq & Afghanistan. Must get back to minding the store in the western hemisphere, dontcha know.

IN as much as it doesn’t seem to matter who is president HERE, I suspect it doesn’t matter in Mexico either. Mahny of those people down there don’t have a choice but to “get into” the drug trade.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Didn’t know that, as I did not follow it closely. Though it does ring a distant bell in my brain.

Thanks for the info.

The home-brewers would still be dealing, but the narco-state would be overtaken by drug-capital.

It would be their civilizing compensation.

best election systems money can buy are hackable in many ways. This may be on purpose if you think about FDR’s quote that ” Nothing in politics is a coincidence”

Well, if you would just start drinking Dos Equis, then you could bee the Most Interesting Man in the World lol.

(Pentagon, present day)

“50K? Not enough! Should be 500K by now! We’ll never be able to take over their oil so long as there’s enough of ‘em to lift AK’s! Tell that Napolitano ***** that she better pump up the volume on how great it is that Mex kids are gettin’ chopped left and right in the effort to save them from druuuuugs!”

“Uh, gen’rul?”

“What is it, Major!”

“That’s supposed to be American kids being ‘saved from drugs’.”

“Any of them getting whacked?”

“Uh, yessir, actually, they are.

“Too bad. Coulda used ‘em in Eye-rack as cannon fod- uh, er, ‘liberators’. Anyhow, so long as it’s ‘Little Brown Brother’ getting whacked, who cares! We’ve got an empire to build!”

It’s important for me to keep track of The USA’s efforts to recolonize Latin America. It aids me in determining my emigration destination. I’m determined to live someplace that’s governed democratically, affordable, and has the least US influence. So far, Ecuador tops the list.

The Mexican governmentt is convinced it would make a difference, Ralph.

Does that have any bearing or weight?

Until we actually try it, how may we know?

This business of saying, “Well, there is just no way to know, so we shouldn’t …”, tends to wear VERY thin.

THE question is this, do you consider it to be worth a “try”?

DW

Well said, eCAHN.

DW

Yup. Just looking at treatment vs incarceration — incarceration being the main way the system is addressing a whole range of addiction related issues — there are magnitudes of cost differential. And incarceration itself, as most acknowledge, but ignore, has ramifications in individual, family, and societal costs as well.

It’s probably not a stretch to say the approach of the “war on drugs” precludes other options from serious political consideration. The mindset is criminalization.

In any case, it seems like the approach isn’t working at all levels.

Don, I am very curious to know what approach you would suggest.

I suspect that your experience would be very useful in designing a better and less costly approach, in terms of dollars, but especially in terms of human beings.

I am especially interested in what you might say, as I have some sense that we would be in substantial agreement.

DW

Just for fun, conside the possibility that free distribution of marijuana might put huge downward pressure on use of hard drugs like meth, crack, and heroin. But hell, let’s just stay inside the box. :-(

- both of ‘em democrats, too ..

The “War on Drugs” is big business for bankers, Cops, lawyers, private prisons and drug cartels. If we legalize all those people will suffer the loss of their jobs and businesses. Addicts are just grist to this profitable mill nothing more.

Big subject and, being retired and all, I’m not all that current. But some things stands out as having been around for a while as ideas or practice.

Decriminalization of certain “lesser” categories of drugs is a start. Limits the damage that a criminal record, even misdemeanors, can have on a life.

Alternative sentencing, such as “drug courts” available in some jurisdictions, which put the individual under close scrutiny of court and treatment providers, reward achievement, and minimize legal impact.

Streamline and provide for restoration of political and civil rights based on time and/or performance.

Amnesty for any number of non violent offenders with convictions based on minimal quantities of drugs or disproportionate sentences based on racially stigmatized drugs, like crack cocaine.

Subsidize more inpatient treatment for certain individuals who have poor prognosis for getting clean without a break from the “toxic” environment.

Require doctors, lawyers, judges, clinicians without addiction training, to receive credible training in abuse-addiction process and recovery.

Target and suspend or revoke licenses of physicians traceable for over prescribing or non-credible diagnosing.

Reserve bulk of criminal investigation, penalty and incarceration for major dealers.

Support early childhood education, and develop an economic model that actually works for lower socio-economic strata. Of course.

etc., etc.

Might sound like a lot of money is involved but I suspect restructuring legal and treatment services, and diverting funds away from big ticket “war on drugs” programs would find major changes quite cost effective.

As to dealing with foreign governments and taking the military route, it hasn’t been effective. Sources of supply shift, etc. Big profits attract those willing to take the risk. Stop throwing money at what’s not working.

Well, that is possible, rc, in terms of those who might not begin to use those “hard” drugs … however, I’m certain that you have some idea of the “cost” of those drugs, today, and I’m referring to ALL the costs beyond “enforcement”, and “incarceration”, all the social costs of the war on drugs, the dollar costs of all kinds, and the human and societal costs even beyond the obvious.

We have, in “control”, a political class, which includes the media (and the judiciary), at the federal level which is wedded to failed policies of scapegoating, prejudice, and brutal destruction.

And, of course, that “ruling” class will NOT relent, will NOT cease and desist, for the drug war, the very first “endless war”, must go on, it being something the political class is doing specifically for itself (not primarily for the Masters), else a fundamental layer of the assault on both reason and the Rule of Law (the modus operandi, incidentally, of the political class), exemplified, in the case of this “war”, by the forfeiture laws, will be lost to unbridled “authority” and rapacious power. Harsh terms, these, unpleasant terms, impolite terms, terms which are not “nice”. However, these terms, and all of the aspects of their “excess” are fully appropriate, and precisely applicable, given the inhumane, unconscionable, and brutally blase attitude of those who wield such vile and despicable power and the colossal, deadly hubris attendant to that power.

No, let us heave aside the clamped-down lid and climb out of the damned box … let us describe rational and reasonable, humane and decent alternatives, that others may hear and heed … let us reclaim justice and conscience, let us insist that humanity, everyone’s humanity is what matters … not some pathetic, threadbare notion of “winning” … when really, all there is, honestly, to contemplate, is incalculable loss.

DW

Thank you, Don, you delineate a reasonable, a sane and a thoroughly decent approach.

Indeed, you describe the only realistic and thoughtful way forward, a most excellent beginning to ending an insane and absolutely un-winnable war …

My sincere appreciation to you for taking the time and thought to share your well-informed vision and your most well-considered wisdom.

DW

You’re welcome DW.

The problems are not insurmountable, I think. But the political priority is low and addicts and their environmental influences don’t have an effective lobby, to say the least, and are rather convenient scapegoats for our demagogues.

–Don

Might I, out of continuing and deepening curiosity, ask where you worked, Don?

DW

DW

I worked all of my counseling years in a couple of public mental health agencies, both inpatient and outpatient; small urban to rural settings. Direct services the whole time.

Prior to finding that ‘vocation’ , I worked in administration of several public non profits. Also, for five years, after law school, in policy planning with the [now] federal transit administration in DC.

– Don

I was not prescribing a cure-all, and I endorse every point DonS made, but my point, made only partially in humor, is that there is an economic supply/demand dynamic here as everywhere, and I see a universe of difference between pot and the harder drugs I mentioned, in terms of all their overall sociatal costs. Every user that downshifted to pot, and there would be a fair number, would be a shift to the good side, IMO.

You are one whom I recognize as a most able public administrator, in the best possible sense of that term, Don, and I sincerely hope that you might not find that observation to be objectionable to your sensibilities. As I have told you, I find your comments to be deeply insightful and superbly well considered. Your clear articulation concerning both public policy issues and your very profound understanding of the human condition are immensely important to the “place” which we all now occupy and to the possibilities which we now, all of us, must contemplate and consider.

You, very obviously, possess a very clear and present moral compass at a time when such a possession is neither ubiquitous nor sufficiently appreciated, at least by my lights.

While my background is primarily in psychology, my concern with the “condition” of the Rule of Law, which I hold to be a fundamental requirement to a sustainable civil society, tends to heighten my awareness of those who display similar concerns.

I hope that you shall not take it amiss if I suggest that you are, most certainly, such a one? Further, that your keen perception of many things and their obvious or, often times, subtle, connections places you in a position of having, as I suspect you may well realize, a profound ability to affect the understandings of others.

In our rapidly fragmenting society, little appreciation is offered to those who daily help to shape coherent possibilities of meaningful and worthwhile change … just as the Occupy Movement is changing the nature of what I term the “conversation”, there are individuals, who do so as well. The words and thoughts of many of those “heavy hitters” appear on the threads of FDL and Emptywheel.

Don, I consider you to be such a one, and I thoroughly appreciate the opportunity of conversing with you as well as reading your comments to others.

DW

In, general, I quite agree, rc. However, that “downshifting” is neither a simple substitute nor even a reasonable possibility for many who are caught in the “position” of “needing” or “desiring” what they seek in those hard drugs. The “space” sought by those addicted to heroin is very much removed from simple euphoria, while the “energy” and invincible “certainty” of those truly consumed by cocaine is not in the nature of an enhanced “buzz” … I have “done” neither, however, I have had “ample” occasion and considerable “opportunity” to witness and seek to “understand” the nature of the “experience” … and to observe certain “prescribed” and “experimental” therapies. Let me simply say that a better, a much better “approach” is necessary, appropriate, and, I consider, inevitable. Don has, most ably, laid out the beginning aspects of that better approach.

It is well past time to embrace and move forward with those suggestions.

Beyond that mature beginning are reasonable possibilities that should be examined and implemented.

I have lost too many friends to all these many endless wars, including the one we are discussing … to have any other perspective.

DW

“do you consider it to be worth a “try”?” Who, me? Hell yes. That’s not the question at issue, though.

What, then, is the question at issue, Ralph?

Might it be: How shall we manage to bring the demagogic political class to reason?

That being central to all of our many dilemmas …

Can that be done?

Or must we consider that “things” cannot be “fixed” and that we may well have to expect that everything must collapse … that we might rebuild, anew?

What question do you consider must be asked, and of whom?

DW

DW -

So much of what needs to be said is not so much coming up with something new, perhaps, as connecting things and articulating connections simply. It helps to be able to connect emotionally as well I think.

I agree, and perhaps it is one of the reasons I get drawn to throw stuff out in comments in a couple of places, that there may, just may be the possibility of adding to the “conversation”. I don’t know of course, but this internet communication possibility, and the acceleration of thought, communication and information leaves the question open.

Having worked in the trenches of the public mental health world I have seen the possibilities of communication and connection being made between seemingly unreceptive, polarized ideas and people. Not well said: I mean that people are able to relate to ideas outside their apparent realm of experience, given the right circumstances. Reasonable human connection seems possible, though I admit society in general is not a great laboratory for such connection.

As far as moral compass, I know it’s necessary, if I recognize it only in my own inner and outer deviations! I try to work at a practice, presumptively not ego reinforcing.

Thanks for your overly generous words and cautious but pointed questions DW. In the old days of the net, perhaps I would have spilled out my thoughts without care. Funny how even in this anonymous format, one still can take care at times.

– Don

Although a lot of the direction of this thread has been too tin-foil hat for me, I suggest the way forward is one state ballot initiative at a time, until the Feds cave.

My friend, I am also not without experience and opportunity to make up-close observations of many sad cases over the past 50 years. Some users of the hard core drugs would rather die than quit. I don’t think they can be saved. Opinions are all over the place on these issues, as you know. I know that the govt relentlessly lies. I also know that long-term marijuana users generally remain decent and productive people, especially when compared to the hard drugs I mentioned and even as compared to alcohol. So I would be happy to see people having the chance to substitute marijuana usage for all or any of the above. That is the extent of my opinion.

That appears to be the current, reasonable, way forward, Ralph, and I sincerely hope that it may work.

Beyond that, I also, very sincerely, look forward to your comments, in future, as I consider that we are all on “this” journey together and that the “tin-foil-hatters” can use all the friends and good will as may be possible.

What a revolting development it would be if relative “difference” of opinion were to cause ANY rational and reasonable opinion to be slighted or ignored as meaningful consensus and truly informed decision is possible only if the full range of possibilities and “probabilities” is honestly, and patiently, explored.

DW

You know, I am very certain, that I am in total agreement with most all of what you write, rc?

(Excepting only that it is the “extent” of your opinion, on this general or specific topic … I, most certainly, hope that not to be the case… and … experience has shown …)

;~DW

I’m not having a good day, DW. No more energy to devote to this topic at this time. Not my favorite topic anyway, makes me feel very angry and hopeless. Too much human breakage involved.

Marijuana, even marijuana addiction (though the standard view is that it’s non-addicitve; but then, again, so is cocaine, technically, though many folks find it irresistible) is less problematical than the more hard core stuff, no doubt. The one area of caution is with youngsters, and the so-called “anti-motivational” syndrome (plus the smoke, when it’s smoked). Hence, along the spectrum of legalization/decriminalization, comes the need for regulation, as with alcohol. Not that that’s made much of a difference in alcohol abuse/addiction. But it’s hard to imagine that a legally regulated situation would be significantly harder for kids to kids to get ahold of pot than it is today.

For “harder drugs” addicts, pot doesn’t seem to be much of an attraction, even as much as alcohol, in conjunction with use of other drugs. Backing down to pot is not something that likely to start a trend : ) I think we all know that.

Sorry your day is not so good; hope my response is not adding to that. Really responding in general.

I hope that your day much improves, rc.

Mine began with the realization that the heavy and soaking rain we are receiving had found its way through the roof which we hope to have replaced as soon as the weather reasonably permits … followed by the inevitable encroachment of water into the basement, although I have managed to minimize that to great extent …

As my “mood” became more cloudy and dark (the leak could not be reached from the attic, requiring a big hole in the ceiling of the “master” bedroom), I chanced to glance out the kitchen window, while hurrying from the second floor to the basement (one … of numerous, muttering, “trips”), to discover that about fifty robins were gathered in the yard feasting on the worms which the rain had driven to the surface of the soil … several cardinals had joined them and, despite the urgency of the emergency, I stopped to look at a sure and welcome sign that spring is, indeed, coming …

May you find some inspiration of joy this day, my friend, despite the perilous and depressing time which has all of us in its depressing clutches?

Catch you on other threads, for certain!

DW

‘Tis an ill wind that blows no good-apparently this one was for the birds lol. Sorry for your leak, hope it is not as persistent as the one in my nose. Something broke in my nose the other day after a week of blowing it, seem to have some internal bleeding and swelling, and lots of pain right in the middle of my face. Plus, I’m re-evaluating what my life should be about as I enter what feels like the final stage. I’m sure I would be happier if I had a few joints lol.

That does not suggest that all knows-blowing … winds up doing good, rc.

Seriously, not a good thing. I can imagine. Yes, the re-evaluation, I quite understand, although I hope that you shall have a very long run until the curtain calls or falls … spliff that ever muggles merry Jane with the Bogart, we’d bong agree on sech things.

;~DW